Thursday, July 23, 2009
SEDEVACANTISM and LIMBO!
Note:Nowhere at all am I promoting the idea that Limbo is NOT a possibility. Rather I am affirming that Limbo has never been Catholic dogma and we CAN and SHOULD have hope that babies that die without baptism can enter into the bosom of our merciful GOD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ!
Sedevacantism and LIMBO examined
For those that are not familiar with the MHFM, they are two Sedevacantist brothers that attempt to refute Catholicism and promote their brand of Sedevacantism when they can. What makes them unique is that they go to great lengths to try and refute anything the Pope comes out with and label it as a "manifest heresy". The MHFM lack any knowledge in the Biblical Languages and are not familiar with the languages that any of the Papal Encyclicals were originally written in. So, in other words, they add their own personal twist to the ENGLISH translations of various Biblical and Papal pieces.
The MHFM will not engage in a debate unless they handpick their opponent. Their only significant contribution to the Sedevacantist community is this silly compendium here. It contains loads of images that are presented to you as well as many articles to make you believe that the Vatican II church, as they call it, is riddled with heresy and demonism.
We can't be any more surprised, when we read their musings on Limbo, to find that this group have lost quite a few followers.
In this short examination, we will be examining the claims that the MHFM(we will refer to them as the Monastery from now on) makes and see if any of them hold water.
By now many of you have heard that, on Friday April 20, Benedict XVI approved the release of a new document on limbo. According to news reports, this document teaches that limbo (the highest part of Hell where those who die in original sin only go) doesn't exist. It concludes, therefore, that unbaptized infants go to Heaven. This document had been in the works for a long time; Benedict XVI officially approved its release on Friday. The implications of this blatantly heretical document are very significant, as I will discuss.
Limbo has never been an official part of Catholic dogma. Furthermore, to claim that Limbo is the highest part of Hell where one who still has the vestiges of original sin gets confined to, is also quite erroneous. None of this has ever been official Catholic dogma. EVER.
Now that Benedict XVI has publicly denied original sin and the necessity of Baptism, for them to maintain that this man is a Catholic, and not a public heretic, shows that they are public heretics who have completely severed themselves from the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no excuse for them anymore when they assert that this man, who has just denied original sin, is not a public heretic.
Benedict nowhere denies original sin or the necessity of Baptism. The Monastery have no right to claim that a certain individual is a heretic based on their private interpretation on certain words that the individual has said. For instance, take these words from Benedict XVI, in his book 'IN THE BEGINNING..'
Benedict, then Ratzinger, says
"For this state of affairs theology has found the certainly mistakable and imprecise word 'original sin.'"
It is from this sentence that the Monastery has come to the Conclusion that the Holy Father denies the doctrine of Original Sin. The fact that the Pope finds the wording "original sin" to need further clarification for those in the field of Theology, nowhere is a denial of the reality of ORIGINAL sin.
Furthermore, quite recently in a GENERAL AUDIENCE, the Pope spoke on the clear Scriptural teaching on ORIGINAL SIN. He talked on the Sacred teaching that St. Paul presented us in his Epistle fo the Romans.
We can see that Benedict clearly believes in Original Sin. He says that those that would wish to eradicate such a doctrine then render the Redemption of Jesus and our Savior himself as void of a purpose.
Someone that says such things surely doesn't deny the doctrine of Original Sin.
It is baseless, silly theological musings like this that actually impress certain individuals. There are numerous people that are educated in matters of Theology, that upon reading a mere paragraph from the Monastery, are filled with laughter. But there are others that take their teachings quite seriously. For this, we must be clear and ready for a defense of our faith at all times.
In further commenting on Limbo, the Monastery quote the Council of Florence
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…” (Denz. 712)
It would be fine to just quote the Council, but they also insist that "The Catholic Church teaches that aborted children and infants who die without baptism descend immediately into Hell, but that they do not suffer the fires of Hell. They go to a place in Hell called the limbo of the children. The most specific definition of the Church proving that there is no possible way for an infant to be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism is the following one from Pope Eugene IV."
As the Catholic Encyclopedia from 1910 explains :
"Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children's limbo, while from the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God's justice and other attributes.""
We must be clear. Florence is right in saying that because of danger of dying, babies should NOT have baptism delayed. But the Monastery is incorrect in claiming that any of these councils are defining Limbo dogmatically or claiming that there is no hope of salvation whatsoever for the souls of these children.
We must be clear in examining the following Council statements
The Council of Florence:
"But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." (Denzinger 693)
The Second Council of Lyons:
“The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished however with disparate punishments.” (Denzinger 464)
If an individual were to interpret the statements of these Councils in a literalist fashion we'd come to the conclusion that the souls of these infants are sent straight to HELL as is the plain reading of these statements. As the Church teaches to this day, there is HOPE that those that have departed this life without baptism may indeed be saved and come into the presence of GOD. Furthermore, the Council of Florence never declares whether those that depart in Original Sin ever see the Vision of GOD. It tells us that
But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.
A clear difference in those that die in MORTAL sin and those in ORIGINAL SIN.
Once again, the description is that of HELL, not LIMBO. We can interpret this as another form of HELL, such as a HELLISH TORMENT, or a torment of some kind. Regardless, since the Church has never DOGMATICALLY defined LIMBO, we can have faith that unbaptized infants DO have an opportunity to enter into the bosom of GOD.
This language is in accord with what the Council of Florence explains. It also teaches differing levels of heaven depending on the merits of the individual.
Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.
The Council of Florence is also accused of being contradicted by Vatican II since Florence tells us that Pagans, Jews, etc. cannot be saved if they do not enter the Catholic Church.
Florence's language is clearly abused over and over. Florence is referring to those that are fully aware of the Catholic faith as the faith that GOD left us. In such an instance, one truly is in mortal sin and cannot enter eternal salvation.
Florence is clear when it says that
Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.
Notice the CLEAR terminology.
"ALL WHO GLORY IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIAN.."
Those that are Christian should not practice rituals of a faith opposed to the faith that Jesus, our GOD, left us.
More statements that are similar to this are made by the Monastery.
What we can usually find are quotes such as these:
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session V, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that recently born babies should not be baptized even if they have been born to baptized parents; or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but incur no trace of the original sin of Adam needing to be cleansed by the laver of rebirth for them to obtain eternal life, with the necessary consequence that in their case there is being understood a form of baptism for the remission of sins which is not true, but false: let him be anathema.” (Denz. 791)
Again, nothing dogmatically affirming the existence of Limbo, rather REAFFIRMING the Catholic teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation.
The Monastery continue
Pope St. Innocent, 414 A.D.: “But that which Your Fraternity asserts the Pelagians preach, that even without the grace of Baptism infants are able to be endowed with the rewards of eternal life, is quite idiotic… But those who defend this for them without rebirth seem to me to want to quash Baptism itself, when they preach that infants already have what is believed to be conferred on them only through Baptism.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3: 2016.)
According to Papal teaching, Benedict XVI and his theological panel are “quite idiotic.” It’s accurate to say that Benedict XVI’s latest heresy obliterates original sin. If infants go to Heaven without Baptism, that means that all people are born in the state of grace. Therefore, there is no necessity to baptize infants, although the Vatican II sect still encourages it just as Protestant sects do. Like other Protestant sects, the Vatican II sect now considers Baptism to be a nice initiation rite which marks entrance into a community, but it’s neither necessary nor efficacious.
A clear reading of every single thing that is posted by the Monastery shows a deep shift in logic when compared to that of a rational thinker.
Due to the Monastery's personal interpretation of what THEY think Benedict believes, they say that he teaches that ALL people are BORN
in the state of grace. This flies in the face of Benedict's recent speech on how he believes that the doctrine of Original Sin is absolutely necessary to believe in the message of Jesus. But the Monastery are interested in shock Apologetics and cutting and pasting quotes and then injecting their own novel interpretation into them. The Monastery will have you believe that the current church is NOT the Church that Jesus Christ left us, and that the see of Peter is so empty it's as cold as ice from it's length of vacancy!
Remember, the Church is not saying now, nor has it EVER SAID, that BAPTISM IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. Baptism IS necessary for salvation. The Church is merely stating that not all hope is lost for those that die without baptism. GOD is a GOD of LOVE and mercy, and we must also apply logic to our faith.
What will you believe? Will you choose to believe Jesus and his promise that he would not leave us orphans, and that the Spirit of Truth would remain with us till the very end? I believe Jesus 100 percent!
DOWNLOAD THE PDF HERE!